Are You Using Stoicism to Numb Out? | with Erick Cloward

Stoicism is meant to help you master your emotions. There's a version of it that just teaches you to avoid them.

In this conversation I joined Erick Cloward on the Stoic Coffee Break to talk about "stoic bypassing" (Jules Evans' term): using the philosophy to suppress hard feelings instead of feeling them. We both grew up learning to push emotions down, so it got personal.

We cover the difference between suppression and reappraisal, alexithymia, why the Let Them Theory is thinner than it looks, how the manosphere funnels every emotion through anger, the case for voluntary discomfort, and a reframe from Epictetus that means you can never lose a first date.

This first aired on Erick's show, the Stoic Coffee Break. Go and follow him.

Erick Cloward / Stoic Coffee Break
Podcast: https://stoic.coffee
Original episode: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5oBAAeiX5x1aMCqoahP3Dv?si=6av80YqGSmeIMG7wdTjGbg
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Hello, friends.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

My name is Eric Cloward, and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. This week's episode is an interview with John Brooks. John Brooks is the podcast host of the Stoic Handbook and also writes a lot on Substack. And a couple of weeks ago, I maybe a couple of months ago now that I'm thinking about it, time tends to fly during the summer, John posted a note on his podcast, uh Substack, and really resonated with me, where he kind of discussed that he was noticing a trend in himself to kind of push things off. It's something that we Stoics often run into in that things that are emotionally tough because we we have the ability to manage our emotions. Oftentimes we overmanage them, if you could, I guess would be a good term for it. And that he was kind of taking stock of that and seeing how that, you know, how that was showing up in his life and the kind of the good and the bad on it. And so because of that, I reached out because I also have kind of been struggling with this lately and noticing where maybe I'm being a little bit too falling into that trap of that traditional stoic, or not traditional stoic, I guess the uh the traditional image of Stoicism. So I invited John to come on our show and uh give us uh give us some time and and kind of talk about these issues and see where we end up on that and what we can do about that. So welcome, John. It's great to be here. I'm really happy you reached out. Yeah. So John is over I where are you located now? Wales, in the Wales. Oh, that's right. I kept hearing your accent. I'm like, it sounds British, but it's not quite British. Not quite British, yeah. That's right. It's hard to pin down for people. Yeah. Yeah, it's the Anthony Hopkins, where it's British sounding, but it's softer. That's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Love Anthony Hopkins.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Um Yeah, so maybe we can go back to that post. Um I'd I'd like to know more about how the sort of stoic bypassing, Jules Evans called it, um, sh has been showing up for you, and then we can kind of riff off the top of that and I can share with you how it's coming up for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, I think um I think it was one of those things that I wasn't sure that I was really noticing until I read this blog post. I read yours, which which definitely kind of you know popped that up. But uh just a couple of weeks before that, I was reading this blog post, uh, I wish I could remember her name now. I I think she was like the standing philosopher or something like that on Substack. And she mentioned how in her 20s she had everything that she wanted in life. Or so she thought, you know, I was living with her boyfriend and he was really sweet, and you know, bring her coffee every morning while she was in the shower. I was like, in the shower. She's like, yes, it's a thing. I'm like, okay. Um uh what else? Uh had this job that was fairly high status and felt really important with that. But she felt miserable. And so she went to see a therapist and you know, it's like and he kept asking me about my feelings, the bastard. Um and you know, kept really pressing on how she felt about things. And one of the things that he pointed out to her was that whenever she started a sentence, most of the time it was I think. So he would say, How do you feel? And she would say, Well, I think. And he said, No, how do you feel? Well, I think I feel. And so, you know, finally he the doctor told her, uh the psychiatrist told her, every time that you say, I think over the next week, replace it with I feel and see what happens. And she said it was one of the hardest things he'd ever done trying to do that exercise of switching from being a thinker to being a feeler, and or at least just being aware of that feeling. And she said throughout that next week, just a lot of things really opened up for her. And one of them was that she wasn't really happy in her relationships. Like he was a nice guy, but it wasn't wasn't, didn't have that spark that she was looking for. And, you know, over the next few months, she really started to get more in touch with her feelings and realized that her job was really soul-crushing and she was very miserable with that, which was, you know, where a lot of her unhappiness came from. And it really made me think about how often I am just constantly in my head all the time, working on the podcast, uh, working on my book, all of you know, I I live by myself, I don't have any roommates or anything, and so I kind of get stuck in my head that way, and everything is rationalized. And because of that, uh, because of that kind of epiphany a few months ago, I mean, I did make some changes with some things and I've been working through some of those. Um, ended a relationship where I I really liked the person, but it just wasn't sparking me in the right way. And, you know, I kept having to try to justify to myself why I should be in it. Not not because of anything that she was doing, because she was great, but there was just something missing there. And if you have to continually justify something to yourself to convince yourself, then it was probably not the right thing. And I felt I felt awful breaking things off, but you know, it's what I had to do. Um but just threw out lots of other things, you know, feeling anxiety, feeling stress, other stuff, funny that I was kind of tamping that down more than just trying to explore it and turn it into something differently. And so I've been working a lot over the last few weeks and months to just l try to be genuinely positive, not cessation of emotions, but how do I steer my emotions in a different way? And and then it's been tough in a lot of ways. You know, there's been a lot of anxiety because of work and other things like that, or lack of work. And so I've been looking for jobs and applying to a lot of places without much luck. Um then working on my book, and so just being in my head for you know six to eight hours a day for a while.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah. Yeah, I I feel you on that. I've been there. Um, and uh it's something that is quite alive for me at the moment, is just coming back into mindfulness and presence. And I can feel it a lot when I'm with my kids. The my kids are always a good measurement for my internal state, like how mindful I am. My kids will show me really quickly. It's easy to distract yourself when it's just you and a computer, and everything's good. Even if you're sleep deprived, you're good. You can distract yourself, you can work, you can entertain yourself. When you have to be with a group of children who are wild in the best sense, you suddenly realize you're sleep-deprived very quickly. You suddenly realize that you're not very present. You suddenly feel the hand slipping for the phone when you want to avoid a situation. That's one of the things I notice in myself. The minute there's like difficulty, difficult emotions arise, my hand starts creeping towards my phone. You know, that's my way of saying I want to escape into this like digital world instead of be present with the uncomfortable feelings. Um so yeah, I I I feel you on that. When I was doing research into stoic bypassing, I came across a term called elixithmia. And it's this idea of not knowing what we feel. And uh I kind of knew about this concept, but I I started digging into it. And the scary thing is with this concept is that you can you can develop it over time by suppressing your feelings. So if you grow up in a household where certain feelings are not permitted, maybe you've got like a dominant parent or something like that, um, or you don't feel safe to open up, one of the things you will do, and it's not a bad thing, you'll kind of suppress feelings because those feelings are not welcome and they protect it's more protective to kind of push those feelings down, because some feelings are very unpleasant to feel and they make life difficult. And then over time, as people start to say, How are you? How do you feel? you switch into the thinking mode, which you're you're describing, because those feelings have now become inaccessible. And I think this links and maps onto Stoicism quite a lot because in stoicism, we you know, we learn this basic theory of emotions. You have um like an impression. In that impression, there's a claim about reality, and you're told to test that claim. Is it true? Is it not true? Is it within my control or not within my control? So you're in your head trying to figure that out. And then you assent to it or don't ascent to it, and then you have passion or emotion. And it's very easy to just get in your head about this and you start thinking, if I'm feeling anxious, I made a mistake somewhere. I'm a bad stoic. You know, if I'm feeling stressed, I'm there's something wrong with my thinking. So I need to think more to be able to figure that out. And it's like you're not seeing that you've just started another chain of of processing about the stoicism, about the processing. Um so yeah, I'm curious to hear what you think about this. But the distinction that I discovered was that you have suppression and reappraisal. Suppression is when you stuff down the emotion or passion when it's already arrived. And reappraisal is right at the beginning, you're sort of redirecting the emotion, as you're saying. So you're sort of you're noticing the stirring of frustration or the stirring of anxiety come up. And then you're working with that and reframing it and redirecting it before it's completely taken over. Um, and that I think is a lot more healthy, and there's some research to back that up.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah, absolutely. Uh like you, like you described, I can 100% relate to that. So my my home growing up was uh fairly chaotic at times. So my dad was uh oh, how to put it in a nice way, um just would have random outbursts of of violence as well as, you know, just yelling and screaming and shouting. Um so there was so it unfortunately it was like I said, it was very random. So it wasn't like you were it was predictable in the way that, you know, if he had been an asshole all the time, then you know, it would just known to avoid him as much as possible. But he would be fine for a while, and then suddenly something would blow up. And so everything in our home centered around keeping dad's emotions, you know, within check or trying to, which which was kind of silly because obviously you can't do that, but you can't control whether or not dad's gonna get mad. But it was everything was always, you know, there became this hyper-vigilance around what is dad feeling today? What's his mood today, you know, right now, you know, is he gonna blow up, you know, and there was just this dancing around like that all the time. And so yeah, there wasn't really a lot of freedom in many ways to be able to express things like that. And when my parents finally got divorced, it was suddenly like we, you know, we could all finally start expressing things and talking through, and and it was just like opening the floodgates. So, yeah, so I'm pretty well versed in that kind of emotional suppression like that because of how I grew up. And so yeah, a lot of my adult life has been working to understand what I'm feeling, because there are plenty of times when I honestly didn't. Um with when I was married, you know, oftentimes, you know, me and my ex would be in a in an argument about something, and I could I could even be crying, and she would say, you know, what are you feeling? And I'd be like, I don't know. You know, it's like the body was acting one way, but my brain was completely disconnected from what was going on because that that emotion was so painful, it just went, I'm just gonna disconnect from this. And, you know, obviously I'm feeling something because I'm, you know, tears are streaming down my face, but I just felt kind of numb in a way. And so it's taken years of kind of working through that to to change that. But it's an easy place to slip into when that's a habit that you've learned how to develop well.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah, the right word there is habit. Um, you were practicing the habit for on a daily basis for years and the stakes were high. So you were motivated to learn this habit. I'm sure it gave you great gifts of perception when it comes to other people. You know, when someone is a bit potentially volatile and you have to watch for the signals, you become very good at reading body language, which is that is a gift, I think, that like um that you always get something good from whatever situation you're in. So um I would imagine you've you're very good at reading the room, reading energies, sensing when people start to get a little bit angry or tense, you know, more so than people that never had to learn that stuff. Um I don't know if it's true, but I did hear that um generally people are really bad at detecting liars and lies. But the one category of people that are off the charts good are people are victims of demute abuse, like domestic abuse victims, because they've had to master like the perception of reading other people so well. Um so I uh we need to fact-check that. I did hear it, but I thought I thought that it kind of makes sense intuitively why that would be the case.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Well, I mean, it does and it doesn't. So yes, I noticed that, but because it's in a way it's miscalibrated. So oftentimes mild aggression, mild annoyance, mild frustration comes across and is read as anger. So that, you know, so for me, that was something that with my last long-term partnership, though, was a real problem. You know, she'd be annoyed about something, and my brain treated it like, oh my God, she's raging mad. And it's like, you know, so there's a miscalibration of of what it really meant rather than going, oh, she's just annoyed, and that's okay. It was like she's annoyed. Oh my gosh. You know, she why are you so mad at me? And she'd be like, I'm not, I'm just annoyed. And it's like, don't hate me. And it's like, I don't, I'm just annoyed. And you know. So unfortunately, we can miscalibrated in some ways. So yes, you can notice it, but your judgment of it is is you know, mix a mountain out of a molehill. So Totally.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah. Yeah. Miscalibrated, oversensitized to these um stimuli in the environment. Um Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that story uh about how you grew up and it it kind of makes sense why you uh would have learned the skill of suppressing emotion. I think a lot of uh spiritual bypassing goes on, you know, in the world of meditation. Uh I used to work with High Existence, and one of our most viral articles was ten things spiritual people do that are total bullshit. And it was just a post highlighting the bypassing that people that are into spirituality tend to do. Um and it's it's kind of hilarious the contradictions, and now there's like a lot of parody in the spiritual world on social media, kind of like making fun of the people that are overly spiritual. Um, because yeah, there's there's just contradictions in what they say and how they act. And an example of spiritual bypassing would be something like uh let's just say you're in financial difficulty, but you say to yourself, the only thing that matters is the present moment. You know, it's sort of like it's clinging on to some kind of really deep spiritual insight as a way to just not deal with life. And I don't think the Buddha would have kind of got behind that. You know, the Buddha would have been like, hang on a second, we're training our mind to be more aware, and now you've taken my teaching and flipped it to become less aware, you know. Um and stoicism is a really dangerous one because there's so much thinking involved, right? There's so much like, like, but is this within your control? You know? No, it's not. So don't worry about it then. You know, that's a that's a big one. People can get into thought loops about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah. And then it comes down to splitting hairs and things like that. You know, it's like, so is this in our control? Is this not? I don't know. And then yeah. But I think as a I think as a general rule, you know, it's it's obviously that's a good thing to understand. And that's part of what drew me to stoicism in the first place, was that I realized that a lot of my frustration was trying to control what other people thought of me. And, you know, it never it never really clicked. That's why, you know, I struggled in certain areas and why I felt insecure about things was because of that. And so over time and learning stoicism, working on trying applying that, you know, I'd I'd had that insight early on and went, oh, okay. And they used it as a tool to help me become less worried about that. Still not perfect at it, but significantly better, and find that my life is generally a lot happier because, you know, I'm not worried if this person likes me or not. If they do, great. If they don't, you know, bummer. Um but just more of but also just feeling comfortable in my own skin with who I am, and that it doesn't matter if other people like me or not. What matters is if I like me and I'm trying to be a good person. That matters far more than if somebody else likes me or not. And getting to that point of confidence and being comfortable in my own skin like that took a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah. Oh, it's in the dichotomy of control is so foundational. What you said there, though, is trying to become a good person. And that makes that the practice of the dichotomy work. Uh I read the let them theory. Are you familiar with this book by Mel Robbins recently?

unknown 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yeah. I found it a bit repetitive, to be honest. So, yeah, so I was thinking um that the let them theory, which is uh a modern take on the dichotomy of control, could be used by narcissists and sociopaths, right? Because you act in a way that's not good, that's like not pro-social, and then someone gives you negative feedback, like, oh hey, I didn't appreciate the way you said that. And you just like, let them say that. Let them have that negative reaction to me. So it's missing the foundation of virtue. That you know, the Stoics had these techniques, but it all served virtue. The dichotomy of control is a cool technique, but you could also use it to become a better assassin. Same thing for mindfulness, right? You could become a really mindful serial killer, you know, and just you know, focus on the breath before you go out and and murder people. That's why you have precepts, you know, and the same as stoicism, that's why you have virtue. It's got to be grounded in that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah, I I thought about it one time. I thought it would be interesting to to write a a sci-fi novel where the the lead character is is a stoic who's struggling with his with his internal moral compass because he's he's an assassin. And you know, and it's like, how do I how do I square these two things, you know? And uh and thought it would be an interesting moral conundrum. I would read that.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah, please, please write that. That sounds interesting.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

But yeah. Yeah, with the let them theory, like I said, I found that um it was very very thin for me, at least for the explanation of it. You know, it was kind of the same idea repeated over and over and over and over. Um but again, also that lack of accountability that came along with that. And that's where virtue gets into it. And yeah. So I do find that the I'm glad I'm not the only one who kind of saw that. My mom was had given it to me for Christmas. She's like, oh, I love this book. I think you'll like it too. And I'm like, okay. And start reading it. I'm like, oh, this is just a dichotomy of control and very nice. And kind of a repeated, you know, thinner explanation of it than the Stoics. But I mean, if it if it gets it out there and people are able to actually get to the heart of the message and keep it aligned with virtue, then I think it would probably be all right. But uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I so I made a video on the Latin theory, and uh I w I bought the book, I listened to the audiobook, and I and not a single time. Is the dichotomy of control used as a term in the entire book? And the only quote from Stoicism from Epictetus was about it's not events that disturb us, but our judgments about them. There was no mention of the actual opening of the handbook where he mentions, you know, so I thought that was a little bit a little bit shady, you know. There's not much credit being given to uh the the ancients there when it's so clearly inspired, you know. The fact that you know the Stoics and you mention the Stoics and you quote the Stoics, but you don't mention anything about the dichotomy uh left a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth. But quick question. Why do you think that it was the best-selling book of 2025 when you found it thin? What's going on there? Why do people love that book so much? Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I mean, honestly, I think that what we see in our society is that people like easily digestible ideas. And and she presented it in a way that it didn't take a lot of work, it actually took a lot less work. It was just, oh, just let them. And everybody was like, oh, it's so easy. Yes, I it I changed my life. And you know, it's just uh the because it was very low effort. And the real you know, the real work is actually a lot more effort because you don't want to let other people think what they think, you know, about you. You you want to control this, you want to control that. So it's actually not as simple as it sounds when you really get down to it. You know, and I'm not overcomplicating it, but I'm just saying that, you know, there comes accountability and responsibility. So you can't just wave your hands and go, oh, let them. I can't control it, so pff. It's like well, but you also have to hold call people to the carpet to hold them accountable for things that they do. And when people aren't being responsible, you don't just throw up your hands and go, well, they're not being responsible, okay. You know, you So it takes more courage than that. And that's part of that is that when people aren't taking responsibility for what they are supposed to or being accountable, you do have to call them out on it. And you know, they still can refuse for sure, because that's that's their choice. But, you know, I think a lot of people felt like it was just an easy way to abdicate anything and not have to worry about it. Oh, I'm just letting them because that's what you have to do. No, well, but like you said, you know, you can't let a serial killer go out and be a serial killer.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Exactly. Yeah. I've I've been doing quite a lot of research in recent months into the dichotomy of control because it's just one of those concepts I'm sure you know that it's kind of easy to grasp on a surface level. But how many of us can say we've truly embodied the dichotomy of control to the point that we perceive reality through that lens, you know, and filter all of our uh emotions and decisions and impressions through that. I would say not many. Um, and a big theme that came up was the difference between like caring and staking your happiness on something. So when people first learn about the dichotomy of control, they think, oh, well, I shouldn't care about things outside of my control. That's like the big myth. So like my health is not directly within my control, so I shouldn't just care about my health. So and then they're like, but I don't like that. I should care about my health, so I don't like stoicism. It's like not quite. We can absolutely care about many things that are not within our control. Like, we don't control the lives and the happiness of people in a different continent. Does that mean we shouldn't care about them? Of course we care about them. Of course, we want them to be okay. Um, and we don't want to see people suffer, and we'll do what's appropriate to try and lessen that within our means. But it's sort of like, are you gonna then become depressed and anxious and lose sleep and then deteriorate because of those things? Well, that's not wise. So you can aspire to have good health. But if the doctor says, hey, you're not very well, you go, okay. I guess I'm not very well. You know, I'm gonna try and fix that, but you know, I'm not gonna crumble because of that news, you know? And that's that was quite a big insight for me about the dichotomy that people don't quite don't quite get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah. For me, what happened when I found stoicism was that I'd studied Buddhism years before and found it a little bit too woo-woo-y for my taste. But also just some of the ideas were a little bit hard to grasp, you know, like attachment, you know, that for them, that's that's basically their version of the dichotomy of control is that suffering comes through attachments to things. And I was like, okay, I kind of get that. But then when I understood stoicism, it finally clarified what that meant. And that was that trying to control things you don't have control over and being attached to them and making your happiness dependent on those things. And that's that's when it was like, oh, here's, you know, here's a much fuller definition or concept of it, and that made a lot more sense to me. And yeah. So I think that that's that that definitely is a big mental leap that needs to come in there like that. And some people I think so some people get it, some people don't. Um, you know, they still try and control things. And it's it's funny for me when I watch TV now because oftentimes when I see people trying to manipulate other people on TV shows, you know, my brain just goes, why would you put up with that? It's like they're totally, they're totally manipulating you. All you have to do is step back and go, sorry, not not my monkey, not my circus.

unknown 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

But they're so emotionally wrapped up in it, they can't see that they're trying to control this other person when that's something that they can't do.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Yeah. Yeah. Controlling other people is a big one. Um it's kind of uh a lot of us, we we we want to believe deep down that we do control other people. You know, I think there's like a need to believe that we can influence people, like we can influence the world to get validation. A lot of social media now is an attempt to control others to get likes. You know, there's that m nobody's on social media like, well, I just don't really I can't control any of these people. I'm just gonna do me, you know? And it's like, well, if you're gonna do you, why are you posting 50 pictures, you know, into like into this space? Or why would you not just have your own friends and family and share it with them? So that's something that I it's I but again, this is one of the shadows of stoicism, that it can make you feel a little bit isolated from others because you feel like not everyone thinks the same way as you. Have you ever felt that? Like a sort of a distance, like a wedge between the way you're thinking and the way other people are thinking.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah. Um oftentimes when I see people acting a certain way, and like I said, I, you know, it's like I can see underneath what it is that's driving them. Is there, you know, when they're arguing with somebody and they're trying to control them like that, and it's like it does create a bit of a distance because I can see the they I can see why they're doing their behavior. I understand that. And, you know, there's a part of me I was just like, why are you doing this? You know, can't you see that you're trying to control this other person or you're or you're you know, you're thinking wrong this way. And it it does kind of separate you out from that because you you just have a a different perspective on that. And you know, and it's interesting because you can often see their motivations. You know, you can see the the kind of the thinking and the behaviors underneath. And you know, it's kind of like you've evolved a little bit, and so you see things a little bit differently. And that's not saying that, you know, I'm putting myself up on this pedestal of, oh, I've done this, but I see that I used to be that way, so I understand. And so it's not that that I'm so much better, it's just I don't behave that way anymore because that doesn't help me. But I but I used to, and I understand where you're coming from, and I can see why you're doing this. Just doesn't work for me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You you've done it, you understand it, you experience it, there's no judgment. Like the Marcus Aurelius idea of seeing yourself in others, you know, you have compassion for people because that was you once upon a time, but you found a different approach. One of the things that I've I've noticed in myself is that I have a quite a sensitive like virtue radar. So if I if I can see individuals that are overtly untrustworthy or who don't really who don't value don't value the idea of becoming a good person. You know, just like there's something about the way that this person is acting, maybe they're gossiping, or maybe they you think they're friends with someone and then they start saying bad things about the person that you thought they were friends with, like little things like that. I notice that a lot more now, whereas before I would have just been like people are people. Um and I think because I'm more aware of that in myself and this idea of you know, one of the most important things in life is your character and who you are and your values, I tend to notice that more in other people. And I do question sometimes if I'm being a bit judgy. You know, am I being a bit judgy or am I being discerning? It's a tricky do you know, it's a tricky balancing act.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah. Yeah. That's always a yeah, that's always the balance of things, you know, and um Yeah, I don't know if there's any real great way to solve that because oftentimes that's going to be your perspective on it. And, you know, where who's the one who sets the bar for what is what is discerning and what is judgy. You know, that's I think that every person kind of has to decide that for themselves. And this is where philosophy, I think, gets squishy for a lot of people, and that's why they don't like it, is because, you know, in a way things are relative. We're all making up our own scale of w of of what things are, you know, what we think is good and what is bad. And, you know, humans don't like that. They they like absolutes. They like it's either this or that, and we and we're good. And so when we get in that gray area, that messy area, yeah, that gets tough. And that's where it's a constant work in progress of what is the best way to handle these things. And, you know, what what works today, you may change your mind and go, you know what, I can do better than that, or or I don't feel good about that thing, so I'm gonna try and do this another way. So and I think that I I think that's that's the ongoing challenge of it. And I think that's why some people some people in a way just give up. And they're just like, eh, I just don't care anymore, and I'm just gonna do what I want. And I think in our current politics, we see we see that with a lot of people, is that they just they don't want to have to take the time and the energy to worry about what it means to be a good person. They just want to act the way that they want to act and feel okay, that the way that they're acting is is is fine. And, you know, we can see unfortunately in our president that he does, you know, he's kind of the worst example of that. That that he just does whatever he wants, doesn't care how it hurts or impacts or anybody else, that as long as it benefits him, it's okay. And that that completely self-centered approach to life, and other people have latched onto that because they like that too, because they don't like feeling bad that they're racist, or they don't like feeling bad that, you know, that they would rather, you know, act this way. You know, basically they would they don't like their conscience and they want to get rid of that. And so they use they use that as an excuse to be able to say, well, if he does it, I can do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah. Yeah. So you're referencing the president, one of the most powerful people in the world. Any, you know, president of the USA is is potentially one of the top, you know, top most powerful people in the world, at least that's how I understand it. When we spoke last, when you came on my podcast, we talked a little bit about the Netflix show Adolescence and the manosphere. We kind of dipped into that. And then way later, the Louis Threw documentary came out about the manosphere. And I was just like, all I could see was stoicism and how anti-stoic the the manosphere is, even though they sometimes quote stoics. And it's the the vibe I got was they almost turned material worth into a religion. Like if I've got a big bank account, if I've got a nice car, if I've got a haram of women that are models, I've won. I've won. And you tell me that I haven't, because that's the proof. How can you argue with my Lamborghini outside? You have a worse car than me, so I must be right. You know, and that's the logic there. I must be right because my car's better than yours. And it's a it's a really childish way to argue, but you can see the pull of it because nothing you say will change our cars. Nothing you say will change our bank accounts, and they will always come back to these like static objects. It's a really kind of warped form of logic. And um I think you know, someone like Trump may be in that kind of headspace where he might have been rewarded for that way of being, you know, by acting brash and confident and having no regret and believing he's always right. Maybe he got the business deal, maybe he got, you know, something through the line, maybe he got the the model or whatever. And then he's like, oh, this is what winning looks like. I'm just gonna keep doing it. I'm gonna keep doing it. And so, you know, there it goes.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah. Yeah. I I read part of uh his aunt's document or book that she wrote about him and uh Mary Trump. And yeah, the way that he grew up, his dad was a real bastard, to put it mildly. And his grandfather was also. And but having grown up in that environment, I kind of understand why he is the way he is. And it's it's unfortunate. But yeah. Um yeah, there's definitely that reinforcement of, well, this worked. The problem is, is that he could have been, you know, somebody pointed out, he could have been so much more successful if he hadn't acted the way that he had. I mean, he just, you know, constantly screwing people over, constantly not paying his vendors, and making them take him to court before he'd actually pay them. Um, you know, and just over and over and over, just this really just, you know, not very ethical behavior, to put it mildly. And you know, but somebody pointed out it's like if he had acted ethically, you know, the payoffs would have been so much higher. But you know my grandpa was kind of that way as well. He, you know, he had no problem screwing other people over if he thought it'd make him a buck. And then he burned bridges and then, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

There's uh like some old conditioning behavior behaviorism experiments where they got like pigeons to tap their beaks on a button and then they released pallets of food and they they messed with the pigeons where they dropped food randomly. You know, they had nothing to do with the button pushing. But the pigeons started to feel like they knew a pattern. So they would try all double pecking, you know, having spaces between the button pushing. Even though it was completely random, they thought they figured out how to get food. You know, and I think that that that maps on well to people as well. We feel like, oh, because I have some level of success, what I'm doing is the only way. Like this, I've ha I've cracked the code, not there's another way that's ethical. And uh, if I just did that, then I'd be more successful. Just like I figured it out. And uh yeah, it just it you made me think of that. You know, we we're always like trying to decode patterns, just like those pigeons, and finding meaning in in the noise and thinking that we figured it out. And it's hard to step back and go, oh, maybe there's a completely different way of doing things that I haven't thought about.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's one of the things one of the things that I do appreciate about stoicism for me is that it definitely has helped me with my own critical thinking because I've become much more aware of my own thoughts and and pay attention to those things. That I am better at just critical thinking overall than I used to be. And so I that's one thing that I definitely appreciate about stoicism is that, you know, I notice I notice the way that I think, and so I'm able to change it much in a much easier way because of that. So I wanted to kind of circle back uh to what we talked about you know earlier about, you know, because we tend to, as Stoics, kind of suppress emotions at times or that find that trap easy to fall into. Um I know that you you noticed that you were grabbing your phone, you know, that was kind of your your main escape path for that. What uh are there any other things you're doing to kind of be more cognizant of that and to find more ways to connect with your own emotions and connect emotionally to other people?

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Um Yeah, so so the one of the things that uh I I've been playing around with is large language models, you know, and as I'm sure a lot of us have who have a computer, you know, it's like fun to play, oh this is magic, this is magic technology. But I actually could find my mind degrading as I interact with with these. I'm learning to skim rather than read deeply. Like nobody reads the reply of an AI bot like it's a novel. Right? You're kind of just like, oh skim, uh, can I pull that, right? What supplement should I take? Oh, skim, oh that one, got it. Um, you know, what how should I think about this situation? Okay, got it. Um so you're training yourself to not be a good listener. So then when you're out in public or with loved ones, they're talking to you and you're kind of just switching off and just pulling like the most important bit out of it. Um you're getting these AI models to think for you, which is de-skilling us with critical thinking. Um so there's a lot of uh potential problems. I've been uh cognizant of these things recently. So being highly aware, and I encourage everyone who is gonna use AI and everyone will as time goes on, to just notice what this is taking away from you. It's definitely gonna give us great things, you know, in the realm of health and training and nutrition and science, it's gonna be amazing. Um, you know, you you have uh a qualified lawyer in your pocket, right? At any time, if you get into some sort of legal dispute, boom, you get an answer. I used AI to help me with a uh like a family legal situation. Um solicitors are 250 pounds per hour. You know, like uh that that is not cheap. Just for an hour of like, can I talk to you for an hour? It's like 250 pounds, please, you know, um, let alone anything else, and writing emails and drafting court fees. And now you can get knowledge and insight at that level instantly. Um, maybe it's not as good, but it's definitely 90, 95% as good. Um, and so I'm just becoming more aware um of how I'm using AI, more aware of how I'm using technology. Um and I'm just noticing what is in the environment that's numbing me and is distracting me. Um and I think I think it's a big problem. And because I have kids, I need to model the behavior that I want them to have. So I did uh some really interesting research because uh as I was having some intrusive thoughts about my son. I was just picturing like him um like having accidents or hurt hurting himself, and these like impressions would come and then they'd go. So I thought if I'm gonna worry about anything, you know, the idea of stoicism is that it's not so much that you don't have feelings, but you just feel things about the right things, you know, like you have the right priorities. So if I'm gonna be concerned and cautious about something, I want it to be the right thing. So I started doing research into um accidents and issues with children. And the first thing that the research said was that the likelihood of a kidnap is 750,000 to one. So you'd have to leave your child unattended for 750,000 years for it to be likely. So it's like, all right, we'll cross that off the list. And then the big uh the big issues were um uh road traffic accidents and drowning. I'm like, right, my son does swimming lessons, he wears a helmet when he rides his bike. Okay, we're we're pretty much covered, we're checked. Um so sort of like learning to uh pay attention and use research to care about the things that matter. I have uh a pretty uh epic family. I have a my son who's seven and a half. My partner, she has two daughters that are nine and ten. And then I we have a baby together who's eight months old. Um and in the research that I did, you it said that one of the biggest dangers for children is social media use and technology. Now we none of us think that, do we? We don't think like, you know, using a phone is a major danger, more dangerous than kidnapping. You know, is it something to be more concerned about than kidnapping? But you know, everyone's worried about their child getting kidnapped. Nobody's saying, keep that phone away from my child. You know, that's like that's a danger. That's a danger. I know Jonathan Haidt is talking about this stuff. Um, and then I'm thinking I've got my phone around my kids. I'm kind of conditioning them to think that that it's acceptable. So, okay, that's something I need to deal with. What are the house rules around technology and phones? How can I moderate that? How can I limit it? Um and yeah, in in terms of stoicism, one of the things that I feel that comes up a lot is the feeling of needing to be perfect with my actions and emotions as a parent as well. And with parenting, uh you've got some children that have grown up now, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 22 and 24. Yeah. You talked about your children when we spoke last. Um you you'll see that there is just is no book or blueprint that could ever cover every situation when it comes to parenting. It's impossible. Um, you know, you I'm got I've got five hours of sleep. I've got a baby that's standing up and I need to rush in because she might fall over at any given moment. I've got one child that's in a bad mood and is asking for ice cream, another child that is complaining that they want ice cream first. There's no clear you you just do this, right? It's it's chaos, it's a mess. Um, and you know, one of the skills that I learned as a parent, it's so underwhelming, is sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing, you know, and just sort of like be there and just contain, you know, and not jump in and be like, right, I'm gonna fix all this, but just like, ah, okay, yeah, I know, yeah, I'm gonna get the baby, and I know it's it sucks when you don't get ice cream first, and yeah, yeah, you can have ice cream and just just be calm and not do anything instead of trying to be a super tad. So uh there's a bit of a a bit of a spiral there for um your question, but feel free to double-click on anything.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Yeah, I think uh I think a lot of it is just b getting back to that mindfulness, like you were saying. I think that that's that's a big key to it because I think it's really easy to once you kind of learn, like like you said, the theory of emotions, it's easy to to quash certain ones because they're uncomfortable. Um But I think sitting in with them, and like I do a journaling exercise every morning and you know, just write write for about 30 minutes or so, and just whatever comes out, comes out. And I think that that's that's been helpful. Um So for me, that's that's kind of my sitting with it, just letting this emotion be rather than actually trying to govern what that emotion should be. And one of the things that I have noticed over the years is that when I find, excuse me, when I find that catastrophizing, that anxiety, you know, starting to kick in because, you know, I'm worried about something and I start to feel that, and there's part of me just like, oh, I don't want to feel this, but it is what I'm feeling. So it's like, how do you how do you feel the emotion but not get stuck sitting in it? Um one of the things that I tend to do is I I call it kind of nudging. And it's this idea of rather than trying to change your mood immediately of like, oh no, I'm not upset. I'm, you know, which is kind of a disqualification of reality. It's yeah, I'm feeling this way, but I can move it a little bit this way, you know, kind of like you're nudging a canoe. And so you don't have to change it 180 degrees if you want to go a different direction on a canoe. You just have to change it a few degrees, and over time, you're gonna end up in a completely different place. So, like think about if you're on the the side of a lake, you hop in a canoe, just a few degrees one direction or the other is gonna take you in a com you know, very different place on the other side of the shore, depending on how much time you're you're out on the, you know, how much time it takes to cross. So this is that same idea of you you just nudge it a few degrees and get it moving in the right direction of like, yeah, I think it's a little bit stressful, but it's also it's a nice day outside. You know? Yeah. You can appreciate that. Oh, yeah, yeah, I can. Okay, you know, yes, it's stressful, but you're still alive, you know, finding that gratitude within those things. Um and just recognizing that you can actually literally change your mood, but the what tends to work better, at least for me, is if I do it gradually, that I'm not, you know, going, oh, I'm feeling sad. Oh, don't feel sad, feel glad, you know. Kind of an, you know, yeah, I'm being a little bit hokey there, but you know, there's you know, when I was younger, I would often feel depressed about things, and I would try and I would feel bad about feeling depressed about things.

unknown 50:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Rather than going, hey, this is what I'm feeling and just accepting it, and then, you know, working to move it into something else. It was just, oh, I feel bad. Oh, I shouldn't feel bad. I should feel great. I should feel glad. And, you know, and it was like forcing myself to not feel what I was feeling because I didn't want to feel that emotion.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Yeah, yeah. So this is interesting. So like a lot of us if if you dig dig into it, we're going through life and we are trying to avoid the uncomfortable emotions and trying to feel more of the nice positive emotions. That's what a lot of us are doing. And we just accept that as like the only way to be, right? Like, of course, like I have some anxiety. That's bad. Don't feel that. Try and get yourself to not feel that. But maybe we can question that and maybe we can say, well, who's to say that that is the most important thing to focus in on? Maybe there's a bigger game to play that goes above and beyond emotions. And I think this is where the voluntary discomfort component of stoicism comes in. So one of the things that I've I've done is I booked, I don't compete very often in jujitsu, but I booked a competition in three months from now. And I've booked it so that I can kind of have something in the future to train for. I I want to work on my cardio. My cardio has been a weakness for many years. So I've I want to commit to doing lots of cardio, lots of walking and running and and and biking. And when I'm doing these things, does it feel good? You know, would I rather be doing something else than walking uphill on a treadmill for 45 minutes? You know, feeling like, you know, every 10 minutes that goes by I could easily step off this. Yeah, but it's also kind of showing me that, you know, there's there's like positive things in life that go beyond just the the moment-by-moment emotions. You know, like there's things like who you are as a person. Are you becoming closer to the person that you want to be? Are you getting closer to achieving a particular goal? So yeah, I do think there is something about voluntary hardship that kind of trains you to not worship positive feelings. That can also be a trap. Because if you worship positive feelings, you're probably going to judge yourself even more when you have the negative ones. Because you you just believe positive feelings are the goal of life. But it's like, so then what happens when a negative one comes along? You're a failure. And voluntary hardship can pull you out of that and go, hang on a second, there's a different game you can play. It's not all about just these feelings that come and go.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah, well, and and the other thing is just that, you know, depression is a signal. It can be a gift. It can be saying, hey, things aren't working. You need to change what you're doing because this situation is not making you happy. And it's it's it can be kind of a wake-up call in some ways of just like, hey, this isn't good for you. You need to change something or, you know, understand what's going on here. So I think that, you know, it's it's really about just being comfortable with those things. And it doesn't mean you sit in it, you know, it's like, you know, if you're feeling depressed, obviously that's a signal that you should probably change something in it, but also don't get mad that you're depressed or because then that's, you know, adding adding insult to injury, or, you know, it's it's piling on top of yourself because you're depressed, and so then you feel more depressed because you feel depressed. And, you know, it can be kind of a cyclical thing there. Um But yeah, I think that especially for a lot of men, and I think this is why the Manosphere has their thing, is just that we're not taught to deal with emotions very well. And, you know, through our media, through our parents. I remember after I got divorced in um 2006, that I I had to kind of sit down and figure out what now? You know, what does what does my life look like? What kind of person do I want to be? And really took a look at understanding masculinity in a different way because the models that I had had were for my dad who was angry so much of the time. Um and so for me, you know, that was kind of what masculinity was tied to was that violence, and I didn't didn't like that. So I'm like, well, maybe I can make up my own definition of masculinity and what that really means, and kind of work through that. But one of the things that I noticed, uh, this is just my own observations, that most men have kind of four states. They have you know, happy, you know, not being bad, but you know, feeling somewhat happy, okay, and you know, which is kind of a neutral state, um, or they feel anger. So I guess maybe about three states that they have there, or or nothing, I guess would be the four state. And that's really where so many things come down to. And so when they have these negative emotions, it all gets funneled into anger. It's like they they feel grief, it becomes anger. They feel sadness, it becomes anger. They feel humiliated, it becomes anger. Everything gets funneled through anger because anger feels powerful. Anger feels um like you're taking action on something. And so it's the only acceptable negative emotion that a lot of men have. And so I think that a lot of the people in, you know, kind of the manosphere and other stuff like that are actually probably suffering from grief or sadness or humiliation or embarrassment, all of these other emotions. But the only way they know how to express that and to deal with that is to get angry.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Yeah, totally. Yeah, like the anger is masking over something, something deeper, you know, whether that's fear or grief. Um, yeah, some form of depression. Um I think it's also worth saying, like, it's understandable why men struggle with emotions as well, you know, that it kind of makes sense as well. Because if you think of the world of dating, you know, if you think of like a single man who's completely carefree and no responsibilities, and all he does is just hang out with his friends and live for himself, he's generally appearing to be in a somewhat joyous mood, talkative, social. And then you contrast that with another man, maybe he's deep into a relationship, there's some conflict in the relationship, maybe there's some stress is at work, and he's struggling emotionally, and he sees this carefree single man, and he's thinking, I'm nothing like that, you know? And if I start breaking down in front of my partner, look at the contrast here. Why on earth would she want to be with this, this man who's like not having fun, can't crack a joke, everything's so serious. So I'm actually just gonna act like everything's fine, which is actually not the right move either, right? Because then you kind of don't release it, you don't bond over it, and we don't grow from it. Um and so yeah, there is it's it's it's one of these things that's like so much more simple than it seems, but also quite hard as well, to just go, I'm struggling, I'm struggling, I gotta be I gotta be honest, I'm having a bad day. It's so easy, but yet it feels like impossible for a lot of us in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't I hadn't seen it from that perspective. But yeah, I could definitely see that that and I know I've done that in relationships before where, you know, because I was worried that you know, me showing that vulnerability, that weakness, my partner or whoever I was dating would be like, I'm out of here. And you know, which which, you know, if you from the stoic perspective is like, yeah, well, if they choose that, that's probably that's actually a good thing because it shows you what their character is about. And so if that person is going to bail on you because you're having a little bit of a rough patch, if things got really bad, they totally bail on you. So better they bail out on something small than something big. Definitely. You know, it's kind of like when you go out on that first date and it and it totally crashes and burns, that's actually a blessing because then you don't waste time on second-third getting involved in the relationship and then finding out those things later on. So Yeah.

unknown 58:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

That example of Go ahead. That that example of crashing and burning on a date, like a lot of stoicism comes back to priorities and asking what do I want in this situation? The answer is often uh, you know, like things related to virtue for the Stoics and wisdom and courage. But if you if you go back to this idea of you go on a first date and you crash and burn, and then we feel bad, the question is, what do you want? Did you want to be validated or did you want to meet the right person for you? Because if it's you want to read them meet the right person for you, perfect. You've just took in one out of the game. But you didn't get validated. So if you only want to get validated, you've lost that game. But is that the game you want to play? You know, because and and it puts us in it kind of reveals to us what are we actually valuing here? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

I've always said, you know, I figured years ago when when I was single again, it was like whenever I go out on a first date, my only goal is to know if I want a second date.

unknown 1:00:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

That's it. You know, it's so get ri I got rid of expectations. It was just like, you know, because sometimes I go out on a date and I'd be all excited about it, and it would, you know, completely fizzle out. And then I'd feel really crappy and you're like, oh, you know. But once I realized that no, I don't I don't have any other expectations of whether or not of I just want to know if I want a second date. That's it. And if it went really well, fantastic. Then yes, I want a second date, met that goal. But my only goal through that was to know that. And that that made it much less apprehensive and took so much stress off of the date because I wasn't trying to be something I wasn't. I wasn't trying to, you know, impress her or or do any, you know, manipulate things at all, because it was just like, I just my goal isn't that to get a second date, it's to know if I want to have a second date. That's my goal.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Great goal. Yeah, that's a that's a really good goal. That's just win-win. Everyone involved comes out badly from a goal like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

Aaron Powell Yeah, because if my goal was to get a second date, then sometimes I'm gonna fail. But if my goal is just to know if I want one, then I'm never gonna fail. And that that made things much, much easier.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

So There's a Epictetus talks about in the Encharidian, uh, don't play games that you are setting yourself up to fail at. You know, in in other words, you can choose what determines success. That's an example right there. I'm deciding that this is a marker for success. I'm gonna set my own rules and I'm gonna live according to those. I'm not gonna inherit society's rules, I'm gonna make my own. So I'm never gonna lose a dating because I've decided either way if I want a second date. I've I will always win. And this isn't like, I think people might misunderstand that as like only doing things that make you feel good or make you feel like a winner. It's it's more actually just like prioritizing the right things, you know. Like why would you why would you set yourself up to fail? You're you're giving too much um you're giving too much weight to externals, to fortune, to things that can shift and change. And you're just doomed, you know, could because one day you will lose. So why not, you know, focus in on what you can control? It's a little kind of nudged, like to use your term, to focus on the things that you can control. Asking the question, how can I define the rules to this game, to this endeavor, so that I will always win. When you do that, you will naturally be following the dichotomy of control. Yeah, so it's like a good way to bring it back.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's definitely a reframe that I try to do all the time. Not always perfect at it, but it definitely seems to help on things. So I guess we're we're coming up on time here, so I don't want to take too much time out of your day, but I really appreciate you coming on here. Um is there anything that you want to leave with my audience uh about what you what you think, what you discover? Obviously, you've shared plenty of opinions here. I guess probably good parting words or lesson that's most important to you, especially when it comes to dealing with, you know, getting in touch with those emotions again.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

So, first of all, I I love talking to you, Eric, and I feel like we could just keep going for hours. So I think we we need you can come back on my podcast and we can pick something up again. Um, so I appreciate the invite here and and the time. Um so coming back to the idea of being connected with other people and practicing stoicism in a healthy way, one of the things that I've done is I've created a community, and I know you have community too, and the focus on my stoicism community is practicing with others. Uh and you you can do this with like a one friend, you know, it'll still be useful. But the purpose of this and why I find it useful is you stop thinking of stoicism as like a you did it well or didn't do it well, and instead the only question is, am I practicing? Am I practicing? It's like a dojo or something, right? Like, did you show up to the gym? I don't care what weight you did, you know, I don't care what effort you had, did you show up? What did you learn? Um, so I do find that to be quite grounding as well, you know, just to practice with other people. Um and, you know, there's lots of different ways you can do it, whether that's leave comments on a podcast feed, but just share what your stoicism practice is looking like. Engage with others. Don't be someone that's just uh kind of like withdrawn into yourself, practicing alone. The Stoics weren't like that when you think about it, the ancients. They weren't these kind of like they weren't people that lived in the cave and never talked about Stoicism. It's a very social philosophy. Seneca is writing letters, Epictetus has students, and they're kind of going back and forth. And you can just imagine that his students would have gone in looking forward to the lecture. You know, maybe I'm gonna get grilled today, maybe I'm gonna get an epiphany, maybe I'll I'll ask Epictetus a question and uh, you know, maybe I'll give him some food for thought. Socrates wandering the streets doing philosophy. Make it more social. Talk about it. Like what are you practicing? What are you struggling with? Uh so I found that to be really useful. Um, so that's kind of like the parting tip that I would give give people. Make it social. Make stoicism social.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

Yeah, I like that. I haven't hadn't quite thought about that. But yeah, Socrates was definitely a social philosopher. For sure. For sure. All right. All right. Well, John, I really appreciate you coming on here, and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors as you well, take the take on the daily life that we all have to live and making sure that we're getting in touch with those things that are most important to us and bring that kind of enrichment to our lives. So also, oh, I guess before we go on, uh just let people know where they can find you out on the the socials, even though we we talk about the yields of social media, yeah, kind of a thing we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

Um Yeah, so I think I have a f like an audio challenge, stoicchallenge.co, that is completely free. So people do like a different stoic audio track each day for seven days. Um that's like a good place to start if you just want to do some stoic techniques straight off the bat. And my website is stoichandbook.co. That's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

All right. All right. Thanks again, John. I really appreciate you coming on here, and uh we'll talk again soon. Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks, Eric. All right. So that's the end of this week's stoic coffee break. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.