The Stoic Handbook with Jon Brooks
You've read the books. You know what Marcus Aurelius would do. But when life gets hard, the philosophy disappears. This podcast is for people who want to close the gap between knowing Stoicism and actually living it. New episodes weekly. Start with the free 7-Day Stoic Challenge: https://www.stoicchallenge.co/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=show-description&utm_content=global
The Stoic Handbook with Jon Brooks
How To Turn Stoicism Into A Daily Practice | Allan From WhatIsStoicism
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Allan found Stoicism through Tim Ferriss and William Irvine, then had to work out how to make it part of an ordinary day. We spend most of this conversation on the practice that stuck: journalling. Allan explains how he started, why rereading his notes changed the learning, and how writing about Stoicism helped him use it in work and entrepreneurship. We also talk about what caring for a dog can teach you about attention and responsibility. This is a conversation for anyone who knows the ideas and still wants a repeatable way to live them.
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Today I speak to Alan, who is the creator of the What Is Stoicism website, the What Is Stoicism podcast, the Sunday Snippets Stoic newsletter, and the Micro Morning Meditations. Alan is a fantastic educator on Stoicism. He does a fantastic job breaking down complex ideas. I'll provide a link to all of his work in the show notes, and we discuss a lot of it in this episode. But I really enjoyed this interview. It's not often that I get to sit down with someone and spend a good chunk of time talking about things like stoic journaling, best stoic books, best self-improvement books, common mistakes and pitfalls on the path of developing virtue and wisdom, morning routines and evening routines and favorite podcasts and effective learning and so on. And so yeah, Alan and I have an amazing deep dive into all aspects of Stoic philosophy and self-improvement in this episode. And I hope that you enjoy the conversation. If you do, please leave a review and a rating. It helps me continue to get great guests such as this one. And without further ado, let's get into the conversation. Welcome Alan. Super excited to talk with you today. We've been uh attempting to arrange a conversation for quite a while, and now it's finally happening. And I feel really good about that. Uh I want to just zoom out and ask you a broad question, and that is, what has been your own personal history of self-improvement slash philosophy? Like how did you get interested in it? How did that become a topic of passion for you? And when did you start learning it?
SPEAKER_01Thanks, John. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. Um I think my own introduction to philosophy and self-help in general, a lot of that came from listening to Tim Ferris' podcast, which was in many ways a gateway to a lot of positive things that I discovered and then delved deeper into. Um, so probably seven or eight years ago was the first time I heard him mention Stoicism, and that was pretty much my first exposure to philosophy of any kind, not having studied it in any detail prior to that, or even really understood the practical applications of it. Um and so he uh Tim had spoken about some dark times that he went through, how he used Stoicism to you know process his feelings around those and gain a bit of perspective on on life and implement some some good principles. So from describing that and doing interviews with well-known stoics and authors and recommended books, uh something clicked for me and I explored that further. I wouldn't say it clicked instantly, it took quite a bit of listening to what he was saying, going over different passages from Seneca and things like that before it really I really understood the potential of um studying philosophy and in a broader sense self-improvement. And I later read William B. Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life, which I think was the first Zoic book I ever read, and that laid things out in a very clear way about how it could be practically applied to daily life, and so I could see there was a lot of potential benefits, and I could also see that in many ways I was already naturally thinking in a kind of stoic manner, and it just made things a lot more simple. Yeah, and since then I've gone on to obviously study the primary texts of Stoicism, you know, the well-known philosophers there of Seneca, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, and obviously the material for any other stoic philosophers very limited, but there's some from Masonius Rufus, Cicero, who isn't a stoic himself, talks a lot about Stoicism, um, so delving into that kind of thing and reading high-quality secondary material, the likes of Donald Robertson and Massimo Piucci has really helped. So that's that's kind of how I got into it.
SPEAKER_00And can I just can I just stop you there for a second? Because I am I'm curious about the whole interest in Tim Ferris. Uh so you were listening to the Tim Ferris podcast? Were you just like a big podcast listener? What what was the intention behind listening to Tim Ferris? Was it like productivity or health, or what was the thing that drove you to listen to that? And what about stoicism initially kind of caught you compared to let's just say, like the advice of Tony Robbins or Pop Psychology?
SPEAKER_01So for Tim Ferris, I think it all started with him when I read The Four Hour Work Week randomly, and then just became interested in who he was and what he was doing. I think his podcast probably appealed to me more than his actual book. Um he had a lot of interesting guests who he was interviewing, and it was long-form interviews, which he's been doing for quite a long time, and there probably wasn't many of or many other people doing that at the time, and it was it was interesting to listen to people talk about their morning routines and uh the sorts of questions that he would regularly ask. So that's probably how I got interested in that, and still listen on occasion, but I wouldn't be as regular a listener as I used to be. Yeah. Um so what appealed about stoicism, particularly I think it was just the relation that like I was saying, it was I could relate to it a lot more than some of the other advice I was hearing, and having read Irvine's book, it really really resonated in terms of how I already thought, but to hear it or to to read it sort of codified if you like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and you know, you're thinking that in a way you're justified in the way you've been thinking for quite a while, but you can expand upon it then with the you know more formal approach.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, uh William B. Irvine's book is such a good book. I've I find him to be a really warm and light writer, and because Stoicism is quite a you know, it's quite a rational, serious philosophy. Um, well, some people present it as that, and uh Irvine really kind of makes it humorous and kind of cracks some jokes throughout the book. I really recommend that book. I think that was probably the first Stoicism book I read as well. Um when I first stumbled on the Stoics, I was kind of mesmerized by the level of tranquility that they seemed to exhibit under extreme circumstances like death and exile, and I was like, wow, this is almost like a form of non-Buddhist enlightenment, and uh that really captured me, got me kind of uh interested and curious. Was there anything specific in the field of stoicism, you know, like death or voluntary hardship or something else that kind of was like, oh, like that really appeals to me on a personal level. This is something that I can actually use in my own life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that is probably one of the other main things is that stoicism tends to find people when they need it most, and you can spot ways to deal with struggles you're having, and there always seems to be I wouldn't say there's always an answer to what you're experiencing, but stoicism helps you ask better questions of yourself in terms of what you're experiencing. Um and for me they place this great idea or this greater focus on the present moment, which definitely appealed to me as someone who could easily get stuck dwelling on the past and dreading the future. So you know, perhaps regretting things that I had done or hadn't done in the past, and spending too long on you know, thinking about those things, and in terms of the future, anxiously worrying about what might happen and things that probably wouldn't happen. So looking at stoicism and how Marcus Aurelius says things like you need certainty of judgment in the present moment and gratitude in the present moment, it's it really failed that way. Now it's not easy to just read these quotes and suddenly start focusing on the present more, but I think with anything in stoicism, any of the practical applications of it, you need to practice it, obviously, to to benefit from it.
SPEAKER_00For sure, yeah. Yeah, your point about not ruminating on the past or regretting things, it's uh it's such a relief actually when you just internalize the dichotomy of control in that way where it's like you can't change the past. Like for sure, you can you can make plans to learn from the past and you know become frustrated if you can't learn. That's I think acceptable, but to just ruminate over what's happened like a year ago, ten years ago, and suffer because of it just doesn't make any sense, and it's crazy to be how a lot of people like live like that, right? They just ruminate all the time on what's already past, um, not really seeing the fact that it's futile, it doesn't actually help them, it can't be changed. Um, so yeah, just walking around with that kind of relief uh due to stoicism feels great, something that I almost take for granted because I just don't ever ruminate on the past anymore. You mentioned that you uh put an emphasis on practicing stoicism. I'm curious what you identify as. Do you consider yourself to be a stoic? Uh, or do you I know Darren Brown in the book Happy doesn't consider himself to be a stoic. You mentioned Cicero doesn't label himself as a stoic. I'm sure that they used certain frameworks from Stoicism. Uh, how do you think about that in your own life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I am not very strict on applying that label, I would say. I would probably say I'm someone who practices stoicism, but I don't feel the need to be attached to the label of being called a stoic or to consider myself a stoic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I don't think that really inhibits my ability to you know produce content on stoicism or help people learn about it in that way. Um I'm not sure if you know modern people could really say that they're truly stoics, not belonging to the stoic school from you know the time when it first arose or when it was in operation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good point, good point. Uh I completely agree with that. Did you as you started uh creating content for your website, What is Stoicism, you also have a podcast, uh the What is Stoicism podcast, which is a bit more recent, right? Is that like how long has the podcast been going?
SPEAKER_01That's probably about 18 months now.
SPEAKER_0018 months, and the website is how long? How old? Five years, nice, that's a good amount of time. So, how how far into your study of stoicism did you start creating content on stoicism? And just before you answer that, uh Donald Robertson wrote, I think in his book Stoicism and the Art of Happiness, a sort of note to readers to write articles and share ideas on Stoicism. You know, that's the that's the spirit of Stoicism, right? To talk about it, to express it, to pass it on, to reflect on it. Um so even though Donald Robertson is some kind of you know expert, been studying uh stoicism for 20 plus years, he actually just encourages people to create content on it, and I found that to be really useful uh advice. But yeah, so how far into your study of stoicism did you begin creating content and how did that start to come about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't think it was too long into my study of it because I think once you start to learn these things, you become really eager to then share them with others.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't think I started writing immediately. It was probably more posting things on Instagram or Twitter, and then possibly a year in, maybe a bit longer, starting to write articles for the the website, and really just publishing into the void and not really trying to promote it in any way or seek any feedback or anything like that. It was more for more to see if I could do it than anything, and thankfully people have found value in it. Um I think about s one of Seneca's quotes, I think in one of his letters to Lucilius, he says something like I learn so I can teach, or uh I don't want to accumulate this wisdom and not be able to share it. So I think that's a good way to look at it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the intention behind the the the website initially was to just share the gems of insight that you were discovering for yourself with anyone who it might help.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And I was naive enough at that point to think that I actually knew something about stoicism. And it's not until I learned a lot more that I realized that at that point I I really didn't know it in any great depth. And obviously I'm still learning, yeah. But I'm trying to um I'm trying to help people get into it first and foremost, see the benefits and understand if it's right for them. Not trying to force anyone into it or you know, convert people, so to speak. But if there's anything I don't know about the philosophy, there's just so many other great teachers and experts that you can point to, which I'm more than happy to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you're sharing what you learn from the original sources and also sort of curating modern ideas. Um, I've seen that you have a really good interview series, a written interview series on the website uh that I also participated in, which is really good, and you've you've got quite a few uh modern stoics uh providing interviews for you there uh as well, which is great that you're showcasing other um writers and thinkers in in modern stoicism.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's really cool how accessible people are within the stoicism community. Like so Donald Robertson, I think Massimo Peliucci, and a few others, you know, they're they're only an email away and they they do tend to share their their wisdom, and I suppose it's a general principle of stoicism to contribute to the common good, and I think if you're involved in that community, then you you try to practice that principle.
SPEAKER_00For sure, yeah. Uh it would not be a good look if if you replied to emails in like a very aggressive, uh non-helpful way while being a best-selling stoic author. Um yeah. So you've been studying Stoicism five plus years, you know, quite seriously. Uh have you also dabbled with other types of philosophies, like, you know, for example, Buddhism is a big one, and or anything like that, other types of practices that are complementary to Stoicism?
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't say I've studied anything in the same kind of depth. Yeah. Uh only recently have I started looking into the likes of Plato, Cicero, uh you know, people like that who are probably the people that most philosophy students would start with. Uh so kind of back to the drawing board on that on that front. Uh the thing about those kinds of authors is you're probably not getting as much practical material as you would with the Stoics, you know, things to actually apply in your daily life, but I do find it very complimentary, some of the material, because obviously the Stoics were greatly inspired by the likes of Socrates and you know, Aristotle and everyone around that kind of time, so it's good to see where that's coming from.
SPEAKER_00For sure, yeah. And this idea of going back to the drawing board, I think uh coincidentally, I was listening to John Viveke uh being interviewed by Tim Ferris. Um funny how that's kind of looped back around. And John Viveki was saying that the uh the works of Plato are one of the most magical pieces of art and and writing ever, but he also recognises that you probably don't want to just start reading them. It's worth reading some introductory texts and secondary sources first, because I don't know if you've had this experience I've had it, where I've just dove straight into some ancient text and just not really been take taking the most out of it, comprehending it, and just sort of like fumbling my way through it because I felt like I should, as opposed to reading it when I was ready and I'm actually okay, and that it sounds like that's what you're doing now. You're actually going to these sources, uh, these writers, with a a good background knowledge, so that you can extract the most from them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, there's for sure a lot of things spotted in in the writing of the likes of Plato and the stories of Socrates that I wouldn't have spotted otherwise if I hadn't already studied the Stoics. Uh and yeah, exactly the same as you're saying there, I I just wouldn't have appreciated it as much without the background knowledge. Um something else I was gonna say there, but I forgot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no worries, like we can always look back to that. Um what what is your basic kind of study schedule look like? Um do you like how do you like to read? Do you take notes? Um, how do you select books? Like how much time do you spend reading per day or per week or per month? I'm just curious how you approach learning.
SPEAKER_01I would say I'll probably read about two or three books a month. Just try to fit that in as and when possible, try to do a little bit every day. Um a lot of the time I'm highlighting things that resonate and then coming back to those and trying to integrate them into the writing I'm doing and the podcasts I'm recording. In terms of selecting them, I didn't have a really good approach for that. I probably still don't, but this year mainly I've gone back to as I was saying, the likes of Plato and trying to look at more of the classic texts and things that most people interested in philosophy would be familiar with. So just trying to work my my way through Texts of that calibre. Before that, with the Stoics, it was more just trying to consume anything and everything. Now I've been place probably placing a greater focus on the primary material, having already read a lot of uh secondary material, the more modern stuff, which gives you good context for going back to the primary stuff too. So I don't think there's any right and wrong way of studying stoicism for anybody that's interested in starting. I would say you need a balance between the primary and secondary texts so that you can get the original material but also get the context of a modern perspective on it.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and what is your view on rereading? Because you know, if you take something like the Encaridian, you can I think the audiobook version of that is like an hour, an hour and a half, maybe it's not very long. Uh, and that's the audiobook. So if you were to actually read it, it would probably be three times that speed. But it's very dense, right? It's like kind of like a manual for life, but we can read it in less than an hour. So, how do you approach texts like that? Do you like slow read it? Do you make extensive notes, or do you kind of reread it? Um, and how do you develop confidence that you are developing competence? So you're not just reading for the sake of it, you know, just to get to the end of the book, but you're actually extracting the insights.
SPEAKER_01Uh, I think what helps sometimes for me is I'm pulling quotes out of those kinds of books and posting them on social media and keeping a note of the ones I posted and then going back and scheduling them. And some will get posted maybe more than once, and in that way I'm familiarising myself with them too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That wouldn't be my main probably way of studying them. But yeah, I would reread things, and I would like to be a bit more strict about that and actually do it on a semi-regular schedule so that I'm not forgetting things, but also when I take notes and highlight passages, I'm collecting those all in one place and going back and reviewing those too, so it does start to sink in after a while, and you you might be writing about one topic and suddenly a relevant passage will spring to mind, which is is very useful. And I've recently started rereading some of Epictetus' discourses, which is a similar thing to what we're talking about previously, where I did read quite a lot of them maybe two or three years ago now, but coming back to them now sorry, excuse me, um I have a much greater understanding of what's actually been said, and even just the stories he tells in them to illustrate his points just seem a lot more vivid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it's definitely worth I think going back and revisiting texts like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um so I l I love what what you're suggesting here. You're you're kind of using your teaching, so posting uh stoic quotes on social media and on the website and on in your newsletter as a form of learning. It's kind of like this lovely feedback loop where the act of sourcing different quotes and different material and then sharing them feeds into your own understanding, and I've found that as well like the best way to truly learn something is to teach it, and sometimes I've I've sat down and I've written an article um on something and I haven't understood the topic fully, but the whole point of writing it is I need to be able to explain this to anyone and break it down in such a way that they can, but in order for me to be able to do that, I have to really, really understand it, and that's the kind of challenge and the beauty of of creating the the post in the first place, um, for me, you know, the benefit.
SPEAKER_01I don't actually find that so much recently trying to write some simpler what is articles, then you know what is a certain term, what does it mean, and trying to write those in a simple way, and it's really furthered my understanding of certain things. Uh I just did one the last week, what is might be pronouncing this wrong, but oikiosis. And I mean I had no idea really what it was until I'd actually finished writing it and at least been able to explain it in straightforward enough terms to give people a basic understanding of it, and it really helped me in the process.
SPEAKER_00What was the on this topic, what was the area of stoicism that you had the most trouble with learning or kind of integrating, or you know, like what was what part of stoicism did you find the most tricky to get your head around when you first started studying it?
SPEAKER_01In the beginning, maybe it would have been the whole notion of good, bad, and indifferent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_01The fact that virtue is the only good, vice is the only bad, and everything else is an indifferent. I think the the common objection to that obviously is that certain things have to be bad or have to be good based on your preconceived notions of what is good and bad, you know, likes of health or good health or bad health or success and having money versus having no money. But when you really dig into the logic of it, you can see that it's a useful way to think about things that the only true good is courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom the things that you can control yourself and apply in your life that can't be touched by external things.
SPEAKER_00Uh a fun question for you. If you could have like a dinner or a drink, or you could hang out with any person in history, a stoic or someone related to the stoics, who would you choose and why?
SPEAKER_01I think it would probably have to be Marcus Aurelius. Uh that's kind of a boring answer for a stoic student, but um I'd really just love to know if he lived up to the standards that he's been portrayed to live up to because there doesn't seem to be a lot of negative opinion about him. He's considered to be one of the five good emperors. And reading his meditations, you can see how he talked to himself and how he liked to treat other people, and how as the most powerful man in the world at the time, he was still able to have some perspective on the power he held, and and he didn't uh didn't abuse that power either. So it would just be interesting to to ask him questions about what he really thought and whether he was actually practicing what it what he's perceived to be practiced.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's a really uh really good answer because Marcus is I guess he's the stoic we know the most about by quite a lot because he was such a prominent uh important figure in history. But at the same time, it'd be really good to get a Q ⁇ A, right, to like really probe him on different questions about power and his approach to this and that. So yeah, I agree he would be an amazing person to sit down with and and chat to. One thing about when you think about meeting people from history, something I tried to do is visualize the humanness of them, like the subtle details like the eyelashes, the pores of the skin. Um when you read Mark Surelius and the Meditations, you never think of his scent, right? That just never even popped into your mind, right? But all human beings have a scent, you know, all human beings eat food. Um, and when I do this, it kind of makes the individual more human and kind of takes them off a pedestal. So when I think of Leonardo da Vinci, like what would Leonardo be like? Well, I don't know, like maybe he would have sore eyes, you know, and bloodshot eyes, and um maybe his clothes would be disheveled, and maybe he would be a bit of a letdown in the sense that everyone is a letdown, you know, to just sit in a room with someone and just be there with them, however you cut it, that's just another human being in the room with you, right? It's not like Marcus Aurelius is gonna start spitting out his best insights from meditations when you're hanging out with him. Um if he does, that would be cool, but um yeah, I find that to be like a humanizing um way to think about some of the great minds in the past without putting them too much on a pedestal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think the way maybe we glorify celebrities and things these days, then if you're thinking about going back in history, then you're expecting to go back and meet a sage or someone who's absolutely perfect in every way. But uh even today, you know, when you think about meeting famous people, you're still meeting a person. They're no, you know, they're no higher or lower than you on the pedestal, so it's good to have that perspective. Yeah, it's a really good point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that's also a big kind of technique or class of techniques in Stoicism. Uh I'm wondering if you can talk a bit more about this just as a as a kind of a general principle, in kind of taking the magic away from things in a way that leads to more suffering. So, you know, magical thinking in CPT can lead to suffering. For example, like putting a human being on a pedestal can lead to more suffering, uh, putting a possession on a pedestal can lead to more suffering. You know, you think it's this magical thing that you can't live without. Um I think uh you could call this object, like objectifying uh or speaking about something in plain English, you know, to kind of taking the mystery away from it. Um yeah, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that type of technique and uh yeah, if you've ever used it in your own life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It's a really good technique, actually, just to think about things more objectively. Uh I think Donald Robertson talked about it in How to Think Like a Roman Emperor. He gives some sort of CBT techniques, and one of them is to describe your worry or problem in the most unemotional, boring language you possibly can. And when you read it back, then the worrier problem doesn't seem as catastrophic as it did previously. And it sort of I think it follows on too from some of what Marcus Aurelius talked about of stripping things back to their naked form or their constituent parts, and seeing them for what they're made up of, or seeing them for what they are, and then you won't be under their spell, so to speak. And so you can do that with you know worries and problems and also things that you desire, like you know, you want to make a big purchase, but you're maybe not seeing the thing for what it really is or what it'll add to your life, and you know, you can see a a £1,000 phone for a block of aluminium or whatever it's made up of, if you really want to take it that far, but uh yeah, it's it's really useful technique to see things more objectively because obviously we have the tendency to exaggerate exaggerate problems, exaggerate the positive aspects of certain things, imagine things where they don't exist. But if you can if you can explain something or describe it in the simplest possible terms, then you're likely to see it for what it really is, and likely not to either undervalue it or overvalue it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, like that's um that's right. He Don Robson does mention that on how to think like a Roman Emperor as well. Yeah, he has a good uh chapter on uh laconic speaking and kind of speaking plainly and not like a sophist. Uh yeah, I really like that. Are there any techniques in Stoicism that really resonate with you? You know, ones that are just connected with you, um, that you tend to practice a lot or more than others?
SPEAKER_01Probably journaling. I think Pierre Hadou describes it as a spiritual exercise. And I would probably agree with that. It's something that I didn't really realise was so powerful until I started doing it. And I don't I can't say that I do it every single day, but it can be easy to fall out of the habit of doing it, but it's definitely useful if you can get into the habit of it. And then when you feel comfortable with writing about your thoughts, maybe you only need it then, on less regular occasions. But I really find that it helps clarify your thoughts, and sometimes when you're writing, and you may just be writing your stream of consciousness, or you may be describing a problem you're having, describing a regret or a future worry or something like that, you tend to access thoughts that you didn't realize were in your head, and solutions to those problems is what I find. Just because simply because you're being forced to articulate them. Whereas before things might float about in your head in a vague manner, but when you have to be specific about things and write them down, uh it really helps with your clarity of thought.
SPEAKER_00Some somebody listening to this might be thinking, well, that sounds really great, but I don't have a history of journaling. How can I get started with that? You know, what's the procedure? You know, um any kind of advice or coaching you could give someone who's interested in leveraging journaling?
SPEAKER_01I would say like any new habit or like any practice in stoicism, uh the best advice is to start small, just do the bare minimum. And there's you know, you could make it regular every day for a minute in the morning, as small as that, and simply just ask yourself what difficulties am I likely to encounter today? Right about that, so that you have some perspective on what you're gonna face in the day ahead. Or maybe it's something to do with things you need to get done that day, or or even just what you're grateful for. If you can spend a minute a day on that, you'll start to see that really helps your thinking. And then maybe you do it in the afternoon or do it in the evening to review your day. You know, there's no real right and wrong way to do it. But I would say that if you can start small, then you you'll actually feel like spending longer on it uh when you realize how much it's helping.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, okay, yeah, I like that. And uh you've kind of touched on this, but I'd like to hear a little bit more about it. Why does journaling mean so much to you? How has it made a big difference for you? Does it, for example, reduce stress, um, give you new solutions to problems that you couldn't quite figure out? Like what is it about journaling as opposed to say a different stoic practice like the view from above or mindfulness meditation that that you really like?
SPEAKER_01I find that it it calms and clears my mind a bit. I do have a tendency to worry about things and overthink. And when I'm there's no outlet for that, then it just stays there. It bounces about in my head and doesn't really go anywhere. It can be a vague cloud, I suppose. And I think journaling just provides a kind of a release valve in a way. Helps me let go of certain negative thoughts, helps me specify other thoughts more clearly, and as you say, come up with solutions for those things if if in fact they actually need a solution. Sometimes you might write something down that you've been worrying about and realize that it's not actually a problem at all, there's no need to be worried about it because you've just described it in its clearest form and it doesn't look as troublesome as what you thought.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes, yes, I I I'm really resonating with this response. And the way that I've often thought about writing in general as well, is something I've talked about, is that people tend to think that writing is this innate thing that human beings have and forget that it's a psychotechnology. We've created it. Uh, for most of human history, writing and reading didn't exist, and so you could look at writing or journaling as a fairly, well, actually very modern and very intricate and sophisticated technology that interfaces with your mind, thought, and reality uh in this incredibly helpful way. It's not just some God-given thing that we've always had and shouldn't be taken for granted. You know, writing is miraculous. It's almost like, you know, certain types of martial arts haven't always existed, you know, like the techniques of judo weren't developed uh 20,000 years ago. Now they are, they're they're a technology, and writing is a technology too. And yeah, people tend to dismiss journaling as like, oh yeah, that's boring, like give me the new shiny technique. But journaling is uh is an unbelievably powerful way to process thought. And at least in my own mind, when I think, I don't tend to rewrite my thoughts, you know, whereas that's something you can do when you journal, you can go back, change something, restructure them. Um I know James Pennebaker has done work on expressive writing for trauma healing and emotional health, and he talks about there's this kind of turning things into a narrative, which you you kind of have to do when you journal. If I read one of your journal entries, it's probably not just non-sequitur after non-sequitur, just random sentences. There's probably some kind of story that you're creating. Um I would presume, and I could read it from beginning to end and I would kind of get it. Uh, whereas when we think, we can we can jump all over the place, you know, like get distracted upon distractions. Um and it's in crafting that story we are turning psychological chaos into order and structure, which is uh really good for our emotional health. Any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally agree. And I think is it Julia Cameron called it spiritual windshield windshield wipers? The practice of journaling. So sometimes it's just a case of if you're doing it in the morning, say, it's a it's a case of clearing your mind and getting out things that might have stayed in there so you can basically just get on with your day and not be bothered by you know persistent thoughts that don't really need to be considered.
SPEAKER_00Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I'll um I'll provide a link to some of her work in the show notes of this episode. Uh so you've mentioned journaling as being top Of the list in terms of techniques. Are there any close seconds or any other ones that you particularly like from the stoic uh collection of tools?
SPEAKER_01I think um for me a more modern technique would be meditation. And as far as I know, the Stoics didn't meditate in the sense of what we think of it today. And from what I remember, Pierre Hadou talks about meditation in his book Philosophy is the Way of Life, but he's more talking about simply just thinking about the principles and contemplating them to ingrain them in your mind. But I think taking it a step further in a modern sense, guided meditations, the likes of what which you do, which was probably the first ones I actually came across, are really really useful for thinking through the principles, being presented with good questions that you can ask yourself and further in your learning about you know what the stoics were trying to do. So you can sit for maybe ten minutes and listen to you know your guidance on a specific issue, say anxiety, and you can feel like you've done something in a pr practical sense. It's kind of similar to journaling too, where it really makes you think and self-reflect and work through your problems rather than you know leave them unchecked.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's th those those big ones, journaling and meditations. And I know that you include those as key components in your micro-morning meditations. Uh I'm curious uh if you could share us what that project is. I know that you're currently uh working on it you know quite extensively, and um yeah, like how did that project come about and what is the intent behind it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's kind of a it's kind of an an antidote to morning routines in a way. Because I in the past got a little bit hung up on crafting a good morning routine and fitting a lot of things into the morning, trying to do too much before the day had even begun. So I want to kinda make a morning routine manageable and integrate stoicism into that. So these the the micro morning meditations are morning routines that you can do in under 10 minutes, which doesn't seem like a lot, but there's quite a lot packed in there, and I think it it allows people a manageable way of integrating stoicism into their day, digesting one thought in the morning that they can take into the rest of the day and apply. So there's uh the three parts of it are a contemplation, which is both audio and text form. Um the second part is a guided meditation, and the third part is journaling prompts. So trying to fit in two of probably the most powerful exercises you could you could possibly do, but in a short space of time, and just to give people a way to get that stoicism fitted in where they otherwise might have found it difficult to do so.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh can you talk about the uh sort of the evolution of the project, you know, like how it began and where it is now. I'm a subscriber and I find the exercises and the prompts super useful, but I also see that it's it's can it's almost like a living thing, you know? It's not this thing that just exists and you access it. It's this thing that you're kind of uh creating day by day, week by week. There's this kind of live element to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it started off in probably a simpler form than what it currently is, and it's still it's still simple. I want to keep it simple in that way. Uh in the beginning I didn't have a grand plan for it. I just wanted to provide that manageable dose of stoicism. Uh I know that people maybe struggle with fitting it in. They might look at Stoicism and think it's too difficult for them or it's too much effort to see any progress, but I think as soon as you start studying Stoicism, then you start making progress. And like I was saying earlier, if you're starting anything new, I mean the best approach in the beginning is to start small. And it's also an alternative to waking up in the morning and looking at social media or the latest breaking news or things that are just gonna throw you off before your day's even begun.
SPEAKER_00I notice a huge difference between the days that I've set my mind up properly in the morning versus those that I haven't. It's uh yeah, it's sort of like being on a video game when uh when you kind of get your shield, you know, you get your shield up before you engage in battle. It's kinda like that, you know, you drink the magic potion, your shield gets higher, and you're just more resilient throughout the rest of the day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And uh I try to keep it the one idea too, because I think it was Seneca said in one of his letters about picking one idea per day and trying to digest that idea. Yeah, which I think is a really good approach, not to overwhelm yourself, but to learn you can learn about the idea in the morning and try to apply it in the day, and then at the end of the day, review how you did. You may have succeeded, you may have feeled, but at least you've tried and you know what progress you're making and what you need to do better tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, yeah, and and I like your commitment to the simplicity of micro morning meditations, you know, you're like eve no matter how long the project uh keeps going, you know, five years, ten years from now, I know that it will always be simple because that's a value close to you. Uh how do you think about stoicism being related to entrepreneurship? And uh, you know, because you and I we both have uh websites, podcasts, I have online courses and you know my premium uh podcast feed, you have um various uh programs and micromonic meditations. How do you kind of think about stoicism and entrepreneurship in that way? I know you you did you also have someone recently on the podcast to talk about this as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I had a guest on IODC.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so talking about uh entrepreneurship and how you apply in stoicism.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so how how do you reconcile that? Because you know, one argument would be you know, like stoicism is should be completely unrelated to that, and then like on on the other hand, you know, providing education and investing a ton of time in researching and and you know and doing all of that, it needs to be sustainable for the person doing it. So yeah, I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on that, how you think about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's I think it's fair to say that if you're providing that kind of education and putting that kind of time in and you're producing something that you really believe in and it has value, then you know, if someone wants to pay you for that, that's you know, that's great, and that's entirely up to them. And the other thing is that I think stoicism can essentially be applied to any area of life. And provided it's done in a way that's a way that references the common good, like I said before, uh, you know, you're doing this to try and help people, try and help yourself first and foremost by actually learning principles of philosophy and stoicism, never trying to exploit anyone, never trying to push anyone to give you money for nothing. You know, basically just doing the right thing in in all the decisions you make within your entrepreneurship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, yeah, I'm I'm completely with you there. So I I make sure that I I have like free trials and like I'm very uh like strict with giving you know 30-day refunds and just refunds in general if someone's not happy with anything they've purchased and also creating a ton of free stuff. Um, like you know, 80%, 90% of the stuff I produce is free, and I tried I pour my heart and soul into that. There's also this idea of when you want to invest in something, it's important to invest, you know. And I was speaking to a friend uh the other day, and he was starting off as a fitness coach, and he decided to coach his cousin for free, and it was a disaster. Like the whole thing went went terribly wrong because his cousin started kind of criticizing the routine and trying to change things, and it just kind of became more like a family ordeal rather than a coach-client relationship. Um, and so there is there is something um to that where I've purchased courses and invested in things, and it's really helped me show up like a as a almost like a sign of commitment to the to the cause. Um, and likewise I have a bunch of free PDFs that I've got on my laptop that I just have never really looked at, you know, because I just haven't really uh taken it seriously.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And you know, I'm very grateful that when I was launching the micro morning meditations, I had a handful of people who were were really keen to to sign up and be the first to sign up. And you know, the people who've signed up for say an annual subscription tend to be the ones who are opening the emails every day and and I assume applying the the material that's in it too. So yeah, there's definitely a sense of accountability there if you actually invest in something that you you want to learn about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Uh what are you uh what are you most excited about when you look to the future? Uh, of you know what is stoicism, the blog, the podcast, but also just in your own life and study.
SPEAKER_01Um I would say I was excited about interacting with more people within this community because it's not something that I've always done a great job of. I've been probably had my head down studying for a long time and writing, put putting out content, but perhaps not talking to enough people on a one-to-one basis, and that's what I've been trying to do with a few more interviews and interviewing people for my podcast, really just getting to know how people are applying stoicism, whether they're finding it useful, what I can learn from them, and if there's anything I can teach, teach them. Uh so yeah, I'm excited to I don't know what form that'll take in the future, whether I can perhaps create a a community or just join an existing one, or just have more conversations like this, and it helps me get out of my comfort zone a bit too because I'm an introvert, so it's not it doesn't come naturally to me to be even doing podcasts, and it took me a long time to start my own podcast as well because it just seems strange to record my own voice, so um I'm kind of comfortable with that now and ready to to branch out a bit more from that.
SPEAKER_00What has it been like for you uh on a personal level developing this podcast? You know, like from where you started to what it's like now. How has creating a podcast helped you?
SPEAKER_01I would say it's made me a slightly better verbal communicator because that's definitely not a strength that I've ever really had. I'm definitely more confident recording my own voice too because in the beginning I was just saying a couple of words, messing up, stopping, starting again. You know, it would take maybe 30 minutes to record a five-minute episode, but it's definitely helped me with that. And again, I started small with that. I was doing very short episodes, trying to understand how to do it, trying to learn from scratch, and on on the way, I've gained a bit of confidence. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near the finished article of recording podcasts and doing interviews and speaking to people live or whatever may come after that, but I think it's definitely a good first step, and to be able to get out of my comfort zone in that way is yeah, it's really pleasing to me to be able to being able to do that because I probably spent a long time avoiding that.
SPEAKER_00Hmm, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I I really do recommend that you know, maybe it's not great advice, but I do recommend that everyone start some kind of online enterprise, like a blog or a podcast or a newsletter, because of what you're saying. It does help you get out of your comfort zone and learn useful skills. Um and it's more than anything fun, you know. Like I bet you didn't when you started what is stoicism, like you said, you didn't really want to turn it into a business or anything like that. It just was this fun way for you to share and to learn. Um and uh it seems like you still find it really fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and some of the feedback I'm getting to is just amazing because people are sharing their stories with you, how they've been helped, you know. I know it's not always going to be positive, there's obviously gonna inevitably gonna be negative feedback at times, but that's far outweighed by even one person saying that what you're doing is helping them, and I think is really all the motivation I need to to keep going with this.
SPEAKER_00You need a bit of negative feedback though to practice being able to handle insults like a stoic, exactly, right? Exactly, keeps you sharp. Yeah, Jules Evans, he's someone that that I've heard you talk about. I've spoken to Jules a couple of times. Uh he wrote his first book, Philosophy for Life. But then in his second book, it's called The Art of Losing Control. It's almost like a counter to stoicism. It's almost like there's an there's a uh a beauty and an importance in losing control and in being intuitive and not being rational. Uh so yeah, I'm just curious uh you know what what are your thoughts on the limitations of Stoicism in that way?
SPEAKER_01Probably could point out limitations in that way. What always seems to strike me about these kinds of limitations is that usually the virtue of temperance can be applied in any situation. So yeah, so if if stoicism is criticized for being too rational or not letting go enough, then maybe it's a case of balance, a case of moderation. You may be doing things to excess need to re-evaluate how much you're doing certain things, whether you're not doing them enough or doing them too much. And a lot of things come down to that question, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and you do hear uh Seneca talk as well about uh you know the the value of basically fun and cheer and jolly and celebration uh done from an intentional place. And I actually think that what Jules is talking about in the Art of Losing Control, there's uh like an intentional element to losing control. Jules doesn't actually recommend that you actually just go off the rails, you know. He's talking about structured containers in which you can be free, like a festival or a retreat or something like that, you know, or like some kind of artistic um um pastime or hobby or pursuit, uh, so there's like structure around the losing control, which does sound to me like a good use of temperance, and you can think about temperance not just on an action-by-action basis, but you can think of temperance from a zoomed-out perspective, like could you be disciplined for six weeks and then every seventh week be more relaxed, you know, and that if you're you know, that can be part of a healthy lifestyle where you manage temperance in that way, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And there's a quote by I don't know who it's by, it says moderation in all things, especially moderation, which I don't know if that's the best advice, but at least it's something to think about in terms of what you're saying there of being super disciplined for a certain amount of time and then slightly less disciplined for a shorter amount of time.
SPEAKER_00I I I've been recently speaking to a friend who's starting his own breathwork uh coaching business and a website, and he was asking me, Well, you know, you have thousands and thousands of listens and reviews. How do you not let that get to your head? Uh, how do you keep yourself grounded and centered when so many people are listening to what you're saying and giving you such positive feedback? How do you keep your ego in check? And I'm gonna throw that at you actually. Um, I'll tell you what I said in a moment, but yeah, you have all of the this positive feedback from people. How do you stay grounded and and not descend into some kind of guru status um big ego character?
SPEAKER_01Uh I'm not sure I have a good answer for that, but I wouldn't say I've ever been someone who has indulged my ego too much or believed any praise or allowed that to to sink in for too long. I don't know whether that's just a case of self-doubt or you know, imposter syndrome, or things like that. But the main thing I'm just getting now from positive feedback is just gratitude, just being grateful for the fact that someone has taken the time to actually send that feedback or leave a a rating on the podcast or an email or a comment on social media. The fact that anyone's taking notice, taking the time to to say that they're getting something out of it, is just just makes me really grateful and it it'll never make me alter my approach or become complacent or you know, treat anyone any any differently.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. Yes, you you keep in mind the intent behind the feedback and don't get too lost in this. Specifics of the kind of storyline that plays out in your head. Uh, it sounds like. Yeah, that's that's great. My answer was that I have a a four-year-old, so that kind of uh answers the question in what sentence like a when you're looking after a four-year-old all day, uh, you get humbled repeatedly, and um, yeah, you get tested in all these ways and you get triggered, and yeah, you really get to see your levels of patience and tolerance, calmness, and also you know, anxiety as well, you know, when my four-year-old is dangling off the edge of a climbing frame and I'm telling him to step down and he's just laughing at me. You know, that's a really good learning experience emotionally. You know, you really get to know about yourself.
SPEAKER_01And also to say you have to listen to me. I got a five-star rating on my podcast last week.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that doesn't mean anything. Um, I'm just a I'm just dad, right? Nothing more, nothing less. So yeah, uh, that's uh that's I I love it though, like and that really kind of keeps me really grounded, you know, just the day in, day out family life. Uh, but I can imagine certain lifestyles, you know, if you're in your physical space, you're surrounded by people that are pumping you up and telling you all these great things about you, and then you see that on the internet as well. I can imagine that certain individuals could get lost in that, even with the best intentions. I think I guess it's a lesson to manage your environment as well, you know, um, set the environment right so that it can it can benefit you. Do you personally have any kind of lifestyle um structures in place? You know, what's your daily routine like? I'm curious.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's pretty similar from day to day, and that's kind of what you're saying there of managing the environment, but also just preferring a pretty simple and no fast life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um in the way the same way, well, not in the same way, but similar to being humbled by a four-year-old, I have a dog, and dogs don't care about online content creators and philosophy, so the dog needs a walk once or twice a day, needs to be fed, and just generally needs attention, so that's one thing that uh keeps me grounded. But aside from that, I like to you know exercise, stay healthy, uh regularly, uh, and obviously read and and write and mainly just do the simple things uh that give me joy and I just try not to overcomplicate things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, keeping things simple. Um yeah, I love that you have a dog. I think I heard the patter of uh pose in one of your voice notes uh one time you sent me a message. Yeah. Um yeah, that's super cool, and also you know, just like stoic virtue being practiced and caring for a dog, like um temperance, compassion. Um yeah, you just you you have a purpose that's bigger than just you, right? If you don't care for your dog, your dog will, you know, get ill. Like your dog needs you to show up for it, him or her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And it's you can look at a dog and see that they're not concerned about the past or the future. Well, the future a little bit in terms of where the next meet is coming from, but um it's a good way to it's a good kind of example of focusing more on the present and just extracting as much as possible out of out of each day is the sense I get from looking at a dog.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That kind of present-mindedness can be infectious in in a really positive way. Uh I'm curious how you integrate your stoic practices into your social life. Uh I don't know any specifics about your social life, but you know, just with other people, do you keep your stoic practices kind of private or low-key, or like how does that how does that work? Um Yeah, definitely keep them low-key and private.
SPEAKER_01I'm trying to think of I think there's an epictetus line about practicing your philosophy in private and only showing the results in public, which I think is quite a good approach. But I would say that in terms of my social life, I obviously try to implement the virtue of justice and trying to treat everybody with respect and fairly and and kindness and and those kinds of things, but I also tend not to get involved in gossip and arguments and expressing instinctive opinions. And I would say that I've probably got stoicism to thank for that because I'm able to take a step back from most situations, assess them, and understand what the consequences may be of reacting too instinctively, uh, which probably would make most people that know me see me as a pretty calm person and someone who doesn't get riled up too often. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What are your what are your thoughts on violence? You know, if uh like if someone say you were driving, someone had road rage towards you, they were clearly in the wrong, but they were kind of shouting at you and threatening you, and you know, getting that kind of adrenaline going. What what are your thoughts on violence or you know confrontation?
SPEAKER_01I suppose each situation um is different, and some things obviously require you to defend yourself in certain ways, but in those kinds of situations where you can literally just ignore it and it would probably well go away, as long as you're not in any immediate danger. That would tend to be the best approach rather than escalating anything like that. And even in the times when you may feel like you've got the upper hand, or you have the option supposed to inflict some kind of violence and self-defense, but also have the option to run away, then I would say run away is the better option because you just don't know what the consequences of violence are, and you see so many stories of people getting into pointless fights, and someone punches someone once and they fall and hit their head and maybe die, and that's that's the consequence of it. So I think it's the more you can take a step back from a situation and see a step ahead and what may happen, what the worst case scenario is, and how you can safely remove yourself from that situation or let it pass, then that seems to be a better option to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I completely agree with you there. Something that I just thought about as you were speaking is uh, you know, when you have significant life events, they kind of stick around and they become part of your history, your story. By engaging in an actual fight with someone, you're entering in a strange kind of relationship with them. You know, like you you are now significant to each other and you always will be on some level. And uh a question to ask yourself like the next time someone's threatening you is like, do you want a relationship with this person that's going to last for the next 20 years? Probably not, right? So for sure, self-defense, like when it's legit, is uh is really useful to have, but like you said, most of the time, like if you can if you can avoid it, uh nearly always the better option because you know you could you could win the battle and and find yourself in a war that you uh that you didn't want to get in into um I've heard Epic Tetis talk a little bit about this idea that you can't really be like half a philosopher, you know, and I'm kind of paraphrasing that, but you you're either all in or you're all out. So, for example, you can't be practicing stoic stoicism and calling yourself a stoic and and then at the same time uh craving for external things and desiring external things, uh, or you can't be claiming to practice the dichotomy of control, but then freaking out over everything and not examining your impressions. Uh so it's kind of like an all-in or all-out. Are you a lay person or are you a philosopher? What are your views on this? And that a lot of people these days are kind of like regular people that practice a bit of stoicism, and they it is this kind of half-in, half out type of approach to the philosophy. Um, there aren't many true stoics to the core, you know. Um if you think of like a true Stoic to the core, uh they would um yeah, they would have like a very, very different outlook on death and sex and possessions than most modern people. And I think you know, if you look at someone like Diogenes the Cynic, there aren't many modern people that are kind of living lives like that who are doing so in the pursuit of stoicism. So, yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know the context of that quote, but maybe it's it was a way of maybe motivating people to actually put more effort in to make progress. But as you say, there's no one you'd think of in modern terms who's like Diogenes or Cato, or you know, the the gold standard of philosopher who's never gonna be tempted by anything and it's just the person who everyone else measures themselves against. But I think there's well, you may not be a full philosopher, or maybe that makes people a bit anxious and makes them feel overwhelmed about even starting down the path of philosophy, that they won't be a philosopher immediately. I think the better way to think of it is that you're making progress towards being a philosopher. And if you can start and make a little bit of progress each day, then maybe that is the work of a philosopher. But in terms of being half in and half out and not really putting the effort in, then you know, th then there's really no point because you're not gonna get the benefits that you're you're seeking by even starting to practice a little bit of s of philosophy.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, and I do think that Epictetus was using that phrasing in a sort of motivational way. Um because yeah, he does seem very inclusive in other quotes from him as well, like you know, like stoicism is for everyone and we can all benefit from it. What are some of the books, like let's say like three books, you can change it to two or five, but roughly three books that have made the biggest impact on the way that you think about life?
SPEAKER_01I have to say, going back to what I said previously, obviously, about William Irvine's Guide to the Good Life, because that was the one that really opened my eyes as to what stoicism was and the benefits of it and how it's practiced. That would definitely be one. I recently read Donald Robertson's philosophy and CBT book, yeah, which was also a big eye-opener. It shows a really good connection between the ancient and the modern applications of stoicism and how it influenced cognitive behavioral therapy. And I think that's definitely impacted my thinking and seeing how the ancient practices were really being applied in that setting from a psychological perspective and you know, an evidence-based approach of therapy. It's really how useful it is, and it it adds more weight, I think, to recommending it as well for the issues that people are dealing with. Uh I really like um Kurt Vonnegut's books as well. Completely unrelated to Stoicism there, but you actually find some stoicism in those books if you're familiar with the principles. The likes of Slaughterhouse 5, I think, repeats the phrase, so it goes like 120 times or something.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Which in some ways is an acceptance of events of the world and coming to terms with the things that happen that are outside your control, and then from there moving on to focus on what you can control. But yeah, I think Kurt Barnegat's style of writing is really really fun to read and very humorous in places too. So yeah, I would say that's made a big impact on me too.
SPEAKER_00Nice. Yeah, I haven't read any of his work. Um, are you would you recommend starting with the Slaughterhouse 5 or was it a good place to start?
SPEAKER_01That was the first one I read, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And there's the Breakfast Club, I think was one of the others, or Breakfast of Champions, sorry. Are there any other places that you like to source your information from? Like do you listen to any podcasts or do you follow any newsletters? I'm just curious, you know, what is your weekly content digest and where do you get your ideas from?
SPEAKER_01I try to keep a bit of a limit on newsletters and incoming information and try to streamline it as much as possible. But I'm generally picking up things from books I'm reading. Um obviously subscribe to newsletters like yours and Donald Robertson, Asimo Pediucci, one or two other stoic related things. But I think what I've been doing more recently is like I was said before with Kurt Vonnegut, is finding stoicism in places that it isn't um explicitly mentioned.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that uh that's really good for illustrative purposes. If you're trying to explain a principle or some other aspect of stoicism to use something that's completely unrelated but does feature in terms of what's being said, you know, it may illustrate control or fate or negative visualization or something like that. And yeah, I find that to be a really useful thing because essentially everything you come across is material for for writing, I think, as most writers would say. So I think that's a useful way to do it, but in terms of what I pay attention to, I wouldn't say there's too many things I'm subscribed to. Obviously, there's Tim Ferris. I've listened to the James Alture podcast quite a lot. Uh he has a really good approach of learning new things where he'll interview experts on a huge range of topics, and he'll always ask the you know the most basic questions. He's not afraid to to look stupid, as he says himself. He'll he'll ask the obvious questions that people listening to the show will actually be thinking of. So, yeah, I think that's another good approach, and I think follows on from things Epictetus says about not being worried to look foolish if you're trying to learn things, then you have to put yourself out there and and ask the questions that you need to know the answers to. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, yeah. I haven't come across this podcast before. Uh, what is your uh I'm often curious, like what it what are people's views on the stoic handbook stuff that I create from the outside? Because I'm in the middle of it, I can't really see what it looks like. What uh how do you interpret the kinds of content that I create, like the podcasts and meditations and newsletters and things like that? How does it come across to you from the outside? What what what was your initial impression of it when you stumbled on it?
SPEAKER_01It it really resonated with me immediately because of the initially because of the guided meditations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because that was something I hadn't seen anyone do prior to that. It was very clear, it was very high quality. More than anything, I think something you'd said to me previously about making stoicism cooler, and I think that's exactly how it comes across when I get your newsletters and your um podcasts and and courses as well, is that it's different to most Stoicism content that's out there in that way, it's more modern, it's it feels just cooler, which uh you know appears to see a wider audience and people who want to to get into Stoicism. It also keeps people engaged and and you know to keep coming back.
SPEAKER_00Thanks. Yeah, that's that's good to hear. Interesting, yeah. I guess I'm um I the way that I consume content I and the the types of people that I've gravitated towards and uh I've learned from, I guess I'm kind of infusing some of that into the stoic work that I'm creating. Uh and I'm quite um I'm not really attached to the to anything really. I'm just kind of doing my thing, you know, and just sort of learning and having fun with it and allowing people to make their own opinions about it. And I'm um I I d I studied filmmaking. I talked about maybe I can't remember if I'd said that in in the interview that I did with you, but uh I'm very much interested in story and entertainment, and I you know, I I've had that experience of a good film, a good film, you know, making a huge impact on me, the storyline, the emotion, the drama, and presenting ideas in a really kind of dull way, just that doesn't connect, it like it doesn't do it for me, you know. Um a film has films have been transformative for me and they got me thinking and they opened up my mind. Um, and so I guess that's now that I'm thinking about it, one of my intentions with stoicism and just self-improvement in general, how can we create actual emotional experiences for people? Whether that's in the form of a guided meditation. Some of the meditations I've created, I've you know, I've heard people say that they've cried, but I've also heard people say that like you know, that really uh you know give them a strong reaction and they weren't quite ready for it. And you know, and either way, it's still getting them emotional, getting them thinking about things differently, it's not just sort of going through the motions. So yeah, thanks for helping me see my intentions a bit clearer there with your feedback.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just sorry to pick up on what you said there about feeling you know, feeling a response to to the meditations and things. And I think when I first came across the anxiety course of guided meditations, was a time when I was feeling particularly anxious, yeah, which was really you know, it was really useful to me to hear relatable things being said from yourself who had experienced that before too, so that helps in a big way, and to be able to relate that to a philosophy that I was already familiar with and learning about at the time just made the impact of it, you know, it sort of doubled the impact, really. And it was really, really useful to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that means a lot, and that like the feedback that you gave me on the the anxiety melting meditation course really did uh it was was very Encouraging for me because I know how closely you've studied um both anxiety in general and and stoicism. I kind of just took your feedback um you know to heart and took it very seriously. And you've also created uh the only person who's created a bonus section in Stoic Anxiety Mastery as well, which I am very proud of when you use um some of the models from CBT or the kind of the early version of CBT uh with the aware model. Um so yeah, appreciate you doing that and providing your own guided meditations as well there. Uh so yeah, we've been going for about 90 minutes, and um there are still loads of topics that I could cover, but let's uh let's keep them for another conversation that we can have again, so hopefully sooner rather than later. Where can people learn more about what you're working on, micro morning meditations and then the podcast?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so everything's on the the website what is stoicism.com to get the there's actually a free email course as well if you'd like to sign up for that. It's what is stoicism.com forward slash morning. And you get some daily routine advice there and some samples of the morning meditations if you'd like to check them out. Um otherwise the podcast is available on all the usual places and the newsletter you can sign up for as well at what is stoicism.com for or what is stoicism.substack.com. And I think that's everything, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Nice, yeah, I love it. And quite a few people who have um followed me and then joined your email list have said that they really like your stuff. I think there's a lot of overlap between what we do. So if you like my podcast or what I do, uh you'll definitely like Alan's stuff and what is Stoicism, and it's very it cuts to the core of what stoicism is, and it really tries to be helpful. You know, it doesn't like that you can tell that comes across in what you do, you're actually trying to help people, it's always on your mind. Like even what you're saying about uh making certain concepts more understandable, you can tell that you're putting the thought into it. Um almost like you're con consciously teaching stoicism to a younger version of yourself who's still trying to figure stuff out. Um, but obviously you also talk about more advanced things, and yeah, I I I look at your micro morning meditations every morning, um read it, go through it, and yeah, I really recommend it. So we'll provide links to all of that as well in the show notes. Any closing words?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I'll just go back and kind of reiterate what I was saying before. If you're interested in getting into philosophy, simply start small and put a little bit of effort each in each day and you know, make it a habit, and you'll soon start to see some progress. And there's so much good content out there, the likes of John and all the other people creating stoicism content today, so there's no shortage of guidance, you know, if you're looking for something, but don't get overwhelmed and uh feel proud of yourself for for each small bit of progress.
SPEAKER_00Yes, start small. That's uh such good advice, and um it's something that you've done as well. I can you continue to do, and the results are there to speak for themselves. So thank you so much for taking the time and uh look forward to doing it again soon.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, John, appreciate it.